reCHARGE® Your Life

Ep55: Erica Kaufman reCHARGED

March 30, 2022 Dr. Keri Ohlrich & Kelly Guenther
reCHARGE® Your Life
Ep55: Erica Kaufman reCHARGED
Show Notes Transcript

Many health benefits are derived from running, but Erica Kaufman had emotional benefits as well. She took up the challenge of a half-marathon and while training she had a breakthrough. She needed to rebalance her life. 

Erica made major life changes to her marriage, her career and they way she interacted with her children. Her advice for others: Constantly re-evaluate what is important to you and be open to new paths and options that come your way. Sometimes the path you have laid out needs to change! 

Erica  is a wife, mother, daughter, sister, friend, leader, colleague and more. Her three children are 13, 10 and 9, and her step-daughter is 4. She and her husband divide time between their homes in Pennsylvania and Virginia. She enjoys traveling, cooking for her family and guests, and running. She has always been drawn to the water, where she swims, kayaks, paddleboards and always looks to advance her surfing skills. 

Additionally, Erica translates business strategy into people strategy, programs and processes as the Vice President, Human Resources for Day & Zimmermann’s Munitions & Government Group, which manufactures and provides munitions support services for U.S. Armed Forces and allied nations. She further serves on the Board of Directors of the Philadelphia Society of People and Strategy and also coaches leaders to cultivate insights to help them perform at their best and have meaningful, fulfilling careers.  

Erica grew up in Gettysburg, a small historic town in Pennsylvania, where her parents were both small business owners. This firsthand view of the excitement and challenges of entrepreneurship helped fuel her drive and persistence. After completing a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology at Muhlenberg College, she earned her Doctorate at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, FL. She subsequently decided to apply her clinical training to business, where she could utilize her deep understanding of people, systems and change to shape her work with individuals, teams and organizations. 

She started her professional career in Consulting with Right Management, where she worked with organizations in multiple industries to improve leader and organization effectiveness. Erica continued to develop her skills at Exelon Corporation, and thereafter at Day & Zimmermann, leading people, processes and programs from Talent Acquisition, Leadership Development and Succession Planning. Erica’s passion is in creating healthy organizations and relationships. She is energized by helping people examine their situations to see new possibilities and enact change.

Connect with Erica to learn more about her and her background:

Sign up for our newsletter at Please subscribe, leave a review and tell your friends about our podcast. Learn more about the CHARGE® model by purchasing the book, The Way of the HR Warrior. Let us know about the moments for you that changed your life trajectory. Drop us a note via our website. 

Keri [00:00:15] Welcome to the reCHARGE® Your Life podcast with me, Dr. Keri Ohlrich and Kelly Guenther. We are thrilled to talk to people who have made a decision that reCHARGE® their lives. Often they push themselves out of their comfort zones and took risks. We want to know about that decision point. Why did they make that decision? And most importantly, how can we learn from them? Kelly and I are passionate HR professionals, and together we co-founded our HR consulting firm Abbracci Group. We have talked to amazing people throughout our careers and listen to them as they made decisions that changed their lives and knew that these inspirational stories would help others. And why did we call it reCHARGE®? It's based on a book I coauthored called The Way of the HR Warrior, and in it we have a leadership model CHARGE which stands for courage, humility, accuracy, resiliency, goal oriented and exemplary. We know that people used one or more of these qualities to help them make their decisions, and we want to learn from them. Now sit back, listen and be inspired by these stories, and then do something to reCHARGE® your life. Let's get to it. 

Kelly [00:01:20] Hi, everyone, it's Kelly. We're so thrilled to have Erica Kaufman as our special guest. Erica is a wife, mother, daughter, sister, friend, later colleague and more. Her three children are 13, 10 and nine and her stepdaughter is four. She and her husband divide time between their homes in Pennsylvania and Virginia. She enjoys traveling, cooking for her family and guests and running. She has always been drawn to the water where she swims, kayaks, paddleboards and also looks to advance her surfing skills. Additionally, Erica translates business strategy into people strategy programs and processes as the Vice President, Human Resources for Day & Zimmermans Munitions and Government Group, which manufactures and provides munitions support services for U.S. armed forces and allied nations. She further serves on the board of directors of the Philadelphia Society of People and Strategy, and also coaches leaders to cultivate insights to help them perform at their best and have meaningful, fulfilling careers. Erica grew up in Gettysburg, a small town in Pennsylvania, where her parents were both small business owners. This firsthand view of the excitement and challenges of entrepreneurship helped fuel her fuel, her drive and persistence. After completing a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology at Muhlenberg College, she earned her doctorate in Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. She subsequently decided to apply her clinical training to business, where she could utilize her deep understanding of people, systems and change to shape her work with individuals, teams and organizations. She started her professional career and consulting with Wright Management, where she worked with organizations in multiple industries to improve leader and organization effectiveness. Erica continued to develop her skills at Excellent Corporation and thereafter at Day & Zimmermann, leading people, processes and programs from talent acquisition, leadership, leadership development and succession planning. Erika's passion is in creating healthy organizations and relationships. She's energized by helping people examine their situations to see new possibilities and enact change. Erica, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. We always like to start by asking what you do when you want to push yourself and expand your thinking. 

Erica [00:03:47] Well, thanks for having me. So when I want to expand my thinking, I try lots of different things. I recently signed up for master class. So there's just a ton of information there to learn all different kinds of things. So I've been just starting to scratch the surface with that. I'm also a big Brené Brown fan. Adam Grant. Those are just some of the the podcasts I listen to when I have a moment. 

Keri [00:04:18] Thank you, Erica. Thank you for being a guest with us. And I have to talk about the surfing first. We don't have many surfers so far on this podcast or if they have, they haven't introduced themselves at it. And I want you to know that you can come out to the desert where I'm at because they're starting their construction. I think in the summer of a surf, a surf pool, that sounds wrong. It's like a surfing heaven. Like there they have quite a few of them around the world. And this is, I think, be one of the first in the United States where they will have waves that mimic the ocean here in the middle of the desert. So you're welcome to come out. 

Erica [00:04:59] Oh, that sounds awesome. I have to say that statement is a bit aspirational. 

Keri [00:05:10] Well, the desert is where no one should be live, right? It's the desert like, who's living in the desert? And yet they've created, of course, homes. But they're also putting an ice hockey team here, which makes me laugh really, really hard because it's ice hockey and we're one hundred and ten degrees. And then now we're going to have not just the very fancy surf, but I think there's another resort that's creating a beach front. So Erica, you can have it all. You come out here. You put your skates on and then surf. So I want Erica to come out here and surf and keep it, and then it will have another podcast. You can tell us how the subpoenas. I love it. I love that you're a surfer and you love the water. What? What masterclass are you taking? Like, which one is still fire kind of your favorite or one that you're like, I'm really interested in this. I can't wait to take it. 

Erica [00:05:59] You know, truth be told, I've really been into Gordon Ramsay. 

Keri [00:06:03] So chef, what? What is your what do you do? Like to bake a cook? Kind of what what? What's your favorite stuff to bake or cook? 

Erica [00:06:14] You know, I am always up for a good challenge of looking at whatever's in the fridge reader and trying to make something of it. So I guess it actually can be a nice way to be creative, resourceful, but it's probably where I excel. 

Keri [00:06:33] I love that you're so you'd be a good contestant on Chopped, where they just got a basket of food. 

Erica [00:06:38] You know, we do family type contests where the kids will get a basket, and it's a sneaky way of getting them to eat something new or get to eat a vegetable or something else. We're trying to sneak in. 

Keri [00:06:53] I love that if I did chop basket, my son would go, "No thanks." I just won't eat tonight and would walk away. So I love that your kids are into it. That's great. That's a great idea. I like that. What? And one last question about let's let's pick on Adam Grant. What are some of the quotes or or his kind of thinking that really resonates with you and that maybe some things that you've that stay with you and you coach others on based on his research and his work? 

Erica [00:07:23] Oh, well, I, you know, his his first podcast that I was listening to, I think the tagline was making work, not suck. So that was compelling from the beginning. And you know, he he just has a fresh way of looking at things, but making it very consumable and practical. 

Keri [00:07:49] I like that. And so and then I'll just ask about Brené Brown, what's kind of what has resonated with you with her? 

Erica [00:07:57] So Brene's the vulnerability researcher. I mean, I just think it's just she's so real when when she does her interviews and all of her work is so personal in the way she gets people to really dig into their story and draw out these themes to the work that they do and how they approach their life. I always get some meaningful tidbit from it. 

Keri [00:08:24] That's great. That's great. Thank you for that. Appreciate it. So people should listen to Adam Grant, Brene Brown and do your own chopped contests with your family or not and watch your family not eat. Which would be my family. No, thanks. No, no. I love it. That's a great idea. Especially any time you can sneak in a vegetable for children is wonderful. It's hard to do. So, yeah, we we sneak them in sometimes and it works. It works out. And I don't know is that he's not eating the best, but you know, he's not going to die from it. At least I don't think so. So, Erica, the big question is, what decision did you make or was made for you? Sometimes that changed the trajectory of your life? And what are some of those charged qualities that you used to help you make that decision or work through it? 

Erica [00:09:20] Yes. I think the if I have to kind of name it, I think the decision was to rebalance my life. And I was on this fast pace. You know, if I go back to when I was a kid, I was probably chasing grades, then chasing degrees and then titles. I had this odd aspiration to be a VP before I turned thirty five and I would achieve these things. And then before I even had a chance to understand the meaning of that success would move on to the next thing. And it wasn't fulfilling. And rather instead, I got to this point where I was just exhausted and depleted. I had three kids and four years. The pace of all of it was just unsustainable. So know I try to go back in time to that exact moment when I realized a change was needed and we were at a neighborhood block party and I got compelled to sign up for a half marathon. And I had never done anything like that before. I'd maybe run a 5K or whatever, and I agreed to do it. They asked me, you know what time I aspired for? I didn't even know what to write. The difference with this challenge for me was that it wasn't about the finish line. It became very and I didn't fully appreciate this in that moment. But through the training that the training was the thing that unlocked so much for me. It was about being out there in the country, on the road, having time to myself, taking care of myself were having the chance to listen to something interesting or just be alone with my thoughts. So I realized I was not running toward the finish line, but really just running to be a better version of myself. 

Keri [00:11:30] Wow. What? And so was that like a few years ago, Erica, in the timeline? So this is like after you've hit your your goal of being a vice president, I would assume. So how many years ago was this? Is this recent?

Erica [00:11:49] yeah, this was probably about four or five years ago. OK. And so, you know, with this, it's almost like a collection of decisions. But what? What came? Was just a complete reprioritization, and I think I realized that, you know, I over intellectualize my choices. You know, I wasn't. Tuning into that inner voice, I wasn't really using emotion to make decisions, and so I was at this place where I just was exhausted. So a lot of a lot of changes were set in motion at this point, including the ending of my marriage, and I moved into a new role at work. Wow. And you know, there were a lot of things that I needed to do like build up a support network and prioritize my kids. You heard in my my bio, I. Lead with these other roles I think I had, I would have led with my title, you know, even any professional setting where we introduce ourselves, we usually start with who we are at work and we give very little attention to these other really important roles in our lives. And that was what was so out of balance for me. 

Keri [00:13:19] Erica, I want to I want to do it like and ask you some questions in three phases, so let's talk about like before running. That's like that's before the half marathon because we've talked to quite a few people on this podcast about that chase for the title by a certain time frame. And how rarely do people after they do that say that was the best? Like, usually it's why did I do that? And because it wasn't, it wasn't. It didn't fulfill me the way I thought it would. You said you were always goal oriented as a kid, like like you had that that that drive would like. Where do you think that came from? And like, did were there people throughout your life said, Don't worry about it, don't act like that? Or do you think more people supported that for you? And society was like, Yes, Erica, you can do it all. Or kind of where do you think some of those messages either reinforcing it or people trying to tell you no? 

Erica [00:14:19] Mm hmm. Well, you know, both my parents being entrepreneurs. Set a strong example of that. My mom continues to just grind it out, she probably works harder and more hours now that she ever did in her life, which is the part of that and I have a lot of respect for her. Part of my moment of clarity was like, Wow, I don't want that. I don't want to get to that point in my life and just be working. Yeah. So I always the examples around me were these hard working, strongly driven people striving to overcome obstacles. I don't think my parents ever put pressure on me to achieve it was really coming from inside. But I do have this moment that I remember when I was in third grade and they wanted to put me in the medium reading group. And my mom went. She went into the school and just like, No, she deserves to be in the top group. And and I always felt like, OK, well, I know I'm not the smartest, but I can work harder than all of them. Hmm. 

Keri [00:15:30] So you knew, and then you get rewarded for it. Here's the hard thing about that you keep working harder and harder and you get more and more things for it. So you're on that that in that hamster wheel, because people like that, you know, like, Oh yeah, she's in the top class and she made vice president by this, like by this age. I mean, we always have these lists of like 40 under 40 and 30 under 30, and we're so excited about these kind of artificial timelines as well. Society is giving you this feedback, Erica. That way to go, Erica killin it. Erica, you're doing great, Erica. No one's really telling you. I don't think slow down, Erica. Have a better life balance, Erica. That's probably the messages you were getting. 

Erica [00:16:13] Exactly. And you know, what's crazy is my, my 13 year old, I see it in her and she puts so much pressure on herself. And I know I've worked so hard not to to do that. And yet, if anything, we are our parent. Teacher conferences are about like, how can we reduce her anxiety? How can we allow her to, you know, take a break and have fun and be a kid and and not be so stressed about school, right? 

Keri [00:16:42] Well, we hear all those messages. And also, I remember I said something to my son one time when he was little and because he was something was wrong and I said, My goodness, what have daddy? And I do something you want to be like, What have we done? Kind of thing to encourage this behavior? And he just looked at me. He's like, Mom, I was born this way. And I was like, Oh, OK, so is there something we can do? He's like, I got to work it out. Oh, like, Oh my god, OK. But but sometimes we try so hard, but it's kind of in them the drive. It came from your parents to you, to your your child's, you know what I mean? Like it? Just there's a part of it that it's in them. It's kind of in their DNA. And so how do we kind of work with them and figure that out? So, yes, well, before the run, you're married, you have three kids in four years, Erica, that's enough to exhaust anyone. And four years, I'm like, How many of you have the job? And then this run comes around this half marathon and you're now running with by yourself, I would assume, or at least your head, you know, you're in your head. How do all these thoughts kind of come up and do you immediately kind of accept them? Or do you go, Hey, thoughts, calm down. I have a lot to do. How did you kind of reconcile these thoughts swirling in your head as you're as you're running? 

Erica [00:18:09] Well, I think it was more of just having the time to think. It almost didn't matter what I was thinking about, I had been. At this pace that was just so intense that I didn't have time to stop and reflect and think, well, maybe I want something different or maybe I'm not happy. And for four months I was listening to podcasts, so a lot of TED talks or whatever, just it would spur all these additional thoughts. But having that time to myself, where I could just have that space was so important. 

Keri [00:18:49] Hmm. What? So how so talk is about when these thoughts are coming in and you're realizing I need to rebalance? Like, what are what's? How do you even start to because you're on this pace, you're in this hamster wheel? And then I was like, I need to rebalance. And that includes marriage job. I mean, these are giant things to rebalance, Eric. So how did you start to think through it without making yourself go completely insane with kind of this overwhelming? Oh my god, now I have to change everything. 

Erica [00:19:23] Yeah, well, I think first it was admitting that I wasn't happy and it wasn't sustainable. So realizing that a change was needed was important, but then trying to create a picture in my mind of of what a better future could look like or what a more balanced picture could look like. And that that support network was really important. You know, there were a few trusted friends that helped me through it. But continuing to do things that kept me healthy, you know, running, exercising, eating well, doing those kinds of things were were key. So all of this was set in motion. But honestly, I think that that COVID really helped. And the disruption that it caused and I don't say that lightly because I know that it was it is a really terrible thing for a lot of people. And yet the disruptive aspect of it was so profound. I mean, it disrupted every aspect of life, which so while I'm going through these shifts, everyone's kind of in chaos. And so no one's following their normal patterns so that that was helpful. But at the same time, it's also like everything just stopped. And part of what I needed to do was say no to stuff. I realized I was saying yes to so much. And in that moment, I'm saying no to other things that are becoming really important to me, like taking my kids to the bus stop. But that two years or those two years have really given us a chance to say no and to strip out these things that you know, are costing us a lot. 

Keri [00:21:17] Yeah, where where did to start making these changes? We talk about 10 of those charged qualities. Where did that? It's a lot of courage to have the conversations with your family, with your now ex-husband saying, I'm not happy. Where did you can summon that, that courage and then also be so resilient through all this to make it out on the on the other side? 

Erica [00:21:45] Yeah. Honestly, I don't know. I mean, courage is definitely. So important to how I was able to move forward, but I think it was just being really resolute. And those conversations were so hard. I mean, the worst day of my life was probably telling my kids that, you know, we were separating. But I think I just had to stay so clear on. Where where I was going. Hmm. And. You know, a lot of people, it felt like were projecting their own situation. So when I told my mom. I felt like the reaction she was getting that I was getting was a lot about her situation and so. You having to be able to put that aside and say, you know, that's their stuff and this is what's right for me and people have an opinion. But I had to not listen to that. 

Keri [00:22:55] How did you get how? Because I think people have a they have a hard time with that one, so let's break that apart, so people project their crap all the time. And Erica, you and I know you and I have talked about this before. It's not about like you. They're not even listening to you because it's like, Oh my God, I'm unhappy too, but I don't want to do anything about it. So I want Erica to stay in her marriage, right? Because then I'll make you feel better. It won't crack my facade. How do you how did you manage hearing people kind of maybe not give not be overly supportive? Maybe. And how did you manage that? Because I think a lot of people face that, that they're trying to make big decisions or big changes in their life, and maybe they don't have the best support network immediately around them. And so how did you manage through that? 

Erica [00:23:43] I think I just had to realize that, you know, sometimes people just can't give you the support that you need, and sometimes it's disappointing because you expect it or your relationship would suggest it should be there. But at the same time? Not dwelling on it so much because there are other people. It comes in unexpected places too, and there were a lot of people who were there for me, who I. Would have never known I could go to or people supported me beyond what I would have ever expected from them. So I think the important thing is not not getting discouraged and looking for it in other ways. 

Keri [00:24:32] I like how you said that. It's kind of you have to know you might expect it, especially from family, like they're going to be super supportive of your decisions. And this is we've done enough of this podcast to know that that is not always the case. And so it's kind of like, OK, I'm not going to get too discouraged by that. That's kind of their thing and then being open to it. Erica, you mentioned to where it could come from because it really is unexpected. Sometimes where if you share your story and we're talking about Britney Brown invulnerability, you share your a little bit of vulnerability. And it's amazing how many other people that you wouldn't even expect come out to support you and help you and you're like, Wow. And this is the when, especially in the LGBTQ community, to talk about chosen family and kind of your chosen support group, as you were saying earlier, which is so important to have. What about what is your new kind of support group maybe look like or how did you choose that, that support group to help you through this? 

Erica [00:25:33] Hmm. Well, I don't know. I think a question. I think it's a more open circle. Of family members and friends and colleagues, for that matter. But also when there was an opening, or sometimes it did. Give them permission to talk about their struggles, and so the trust that has. Has increased because I was willing to be open and ask for help, which is something I also I couldn't do before. You know, people were very gracious with the support that they gave and and now are allowing me to help them to. 

Keri [00:26:30] I know we talked about that vulnerability and you mentioned it. How hard was it for you to kind of ask for help and be vulnerable? And how did you kind of get yourself to do that because you mentioned it was hard to ask for help, but I'm assuming sharing your story, especially when you're so goal oriented and things were going so quote unquote to the outside. Well, right? She's had all these metrics, all these things. How hard was it for you to say, no, it's not going well and to be vulnerable with others? 

Erica [00:27:00] Oh, it was completely terrifying because I felt like I had to project this era of perfection. And I realized my standards for myself were. Too high, unattainable. But in trying to project that, I was alienating myself. And so when I was able to say, you know, like my life is a shit show right now, I know people were much more willing to say, You know what? Everything looks great, but I'm struggling to. So. I realize that, you know, there's there's a lot of people who project that things look good and really could benefit from support and help to. 

Keri [00:27:50] If we could all just agree that it's a shit show, Erica, you didn't like how I was. I was thinking of how less exhausted you must have been when you let go of being perfect or creating that that image, I would think immediately once you let that go. You must not has been not as tired anymore, Erica. 

Erica [00:28:11] Yeah, exactly right. It was. It was. It was exhausting. 

Keri [00:28:15] So so what? Especially so if we get to you've given already advice throughout, but I want to put a very fine point on it, especially during COVID, because you mentioned this gave people as horrible as it is for so many people. It also gave people time and time can be good and bad for some. And for you, Erica, you're like, Oh my God, that was great that I had this time, and it was really hard to get through it. So what? And people, especially women, as the three of us on this on this podcast know, have a lot of pressure to manage it all. I'm a mom, I have a career and I have a marriage like, Oh, it's great, and I make cookies like, OK. And I do everything. So what advice do you have for especially women in this situation where maybe they do have that more of a veneer of I can do it all in the perfection? And how can you help them? Like, what advice would you give them to get to the point where they're like, You know what? It's kind of a shit show, and I'm OK with that. Like, what advice do you have for them to kind of listen in and listen to that voice and be OK with it? 

Erica [00:29:23] Well, I think it's it's constantly reevaluating what's important and even what was important to me before has changed. You know, just because what the world around us is changing and I'm different, but so I think it's it's being clear about that and. I didn't have a pass, a clear path to get to where I wanted to be. And I think that would have stopped me before. The best metaphor for that that I think applies is, you know, when it's really foggy or maybe for you and there's a big dust storm and you can't see far in front of you. But if you have to go somewhere, if you're driving, the only way to make progress is to start moving. And we we try to wait for this divine clarity. You know, the powerful will feel itself. I don't know. I wouldn't have been able to predict that there would be a global pandemic that would last two years. But with that, new pathways and new options emerge and reveal themselves. So even if I would have tried to come up with a very clear plan or course of action, I don't know that it would have been the best one at being open and just moving is, I think, one of the most important things we can do when we have a lot of murkiness in front of us. 

Keri [00:30:58] I love that image. So whatever storm you're in. Snow, dust fog. I love that image of, you know what, either you just stand there and 100 percent means you're not going to go anywhere. You're just going to stand there and then let it either envelop you or you're just going to wait for it to pass, which it might never pass or you start to move like you have to move through it. You have to do something. And, like you said, probably isn't on the exact plan that you made, but to be open and flexible to that is beautiful. And I think Kelly Kelly, you have it all put together. Kelly life is not a shit show on your end, right? 

Keri [00:31:44] Oh no, it's all buttoned up nicely. I never stand when I never stand over analyzing and waiting to pass at all. I'm just thinking, that's a perfect analogy. 

Keri [00:31:54] Yeah. Kelly never overanalyze is anything or puts ever sure she put zero pressure on herself to be perfect immediately when learning a new skill. That's not true.  

Kelly [00:32:06] What I like the moment of ultimate clarity that you spoke of, Erica, because that's what I'm always looking for, and I'm realizing that I have to operate at so much outside of that, like so many people do, because there is no such thing so that the only way to make progress is to start moving. Quote is, I think, the quote of the podcast, to be quite honest with you, truly.  

Erica [00:32:29] I like it, you know, I wondered if if maybe one day I fantasize about writing a book and then was joking, and he said, Well, here's a working title for you to get out of my head, get out of my head and into my life. 

Keri [00:32:44] I love that too, because so many of us do that. And I think, Erica, what I what I especially appreciate about how you shared with us today is number one being so vulnerable because I can imagine it takes a lot to sort of sort of relive some of this is your if you're as you're sharing with us and our listeners. But also, I very much get the sense from you that you are very much a work in progress and you're very accepting of that and you're very proud of it. You're proud of that, of making that sort of statement. So I wonder in what ways through all of that progress you've made, in what ways do you feel that the balance that you have worked so hard to achieve is working for you? And in what ways do you feel there's still work to be done? 

Erica [00:33:29] Hmm. Well. One thing that I am really proud of is that I am so much more present with my kids in my time with them is limited. But when I'm with them, I'm 100 percent, so I I need to keep pushing myself to make sure that that happens. But that's something that I think is is indicative of the kind of progress I needed to make. I spent a lot of time on 09:05 going up and down the highway between the Virginia House and the Pennsylvania House, and so I need to try to figure out that part of the equation. But yes, it is very much a work in progress, and I think I need to just continue to reevaluate. 

Kelly [00:34:28] No, well, one of the common themes from this podcast, too, is that ongoing self-awareness, and you've developed it early from from what you've shared in that continuous improvement of self is what's so important. You know you've you've really tapped into and you haven't ignored it. You've only sort of done the hard work that it takes to live the best version of your life and be the best role model for your children, imagining that you know when you're having those very difficult conversations. You know, talking about the end of a marriage with your children that now you're living a different life, you're living a life that allows you to be the best version of yourself for them so that they can recognize that while this was a difficult decision for you to make, you made it because this allows you to be the best mother you could be for them. So I can't imagine but think that one day they will look back and they will realize, oh, as they're adults, how important of a decision that was that you made? Hmm. You know, thank you. So. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being on our podcast for sharing your story. We absolutely, absolutely recommend that everyone take a look at our show notes and find Erica's contact information. And to do the hard work that Erica did and really examining and looking at your life critically and in taking a look to see what changes, if any, you want to make. And. And as I as I mentioned, the quote of the podcast in my mind is the only way to make progress is to start moving. Love that so much. Thank you again, Erica, for being a guest in our podcast and for sharing your story, you're very poignant story with us. 

Erica [00:36:12] Thank you.  

Kelly [00:36:17] Thank you for listening to the reCHARGE® Your Life podcast. Please sign up for our newsletter at Abbracci And follow us on social media. You can find us on LinkedIn at Abbracci Group. Instagram at WarriorsofHR and Twitter at Warriors_HR. Remember to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and please tell a friend and be sure to drop us a note on how you are recharging your life. We can't wait to hear from you.